Shop Talk

[mclachlanol]

This forum is for setup talk, NTM discussion, and any other technical questions. Below are some setup tips and guidelines for fine tuning your car.

Setup page in Iracing Forums
Setup Sheet

 

[TheGreatC81]

I was reading the build notes and saw this:

Dallara F3

- This vehicle now utilizes the V7 Tire Model!

- The yield limit for the sidepod collisions has been increased by 50%.
- - This should eliminate floor and sidepod damage from small impacts, such as curbs at Mosport

The new tire model feels pretty good on the skippy, so I'm hoping it translates well to the F3. And it sounds like it won't be so fragile which should help reduce DNF's, I hope. The new track temp modeling sounds awesome too. Lots of good stuff this build!

 

[mclachlanol]

So been trying out the new tires, so far I think I've learned:
1) First lap sucks, and I mean sucks, we really need to take it easy especially in the morning races. After the first lap though it does seem more forgiving and it you are able to catch the slides and wobbles easier.
2) Standing Starts are going to be harder. Before you can mash the pedal at the start but now you just spin, going to take some practice.
3) I needed to lower my tire pressures from last season. Made a big difference in lap times. Although I'm reading in the forums some are raising them so I'm not sure what the right call is. All I know I was a full second faster lowering the pressures by 1.5.
4) The third and fourth lap were great and then I lost a half a second to a second per lap for the rest of the stint. Plan on running short qualifying stints?
5) Tires degraded faster, I was down to 89-90% for left side tires at Catalunya after 20 min. Not sure how it will stand to a 45 min race, Some guys were getting tires last season but most were not. I'm wondering if that is going to change.

Overall, at first I hated it, really hated it. But after spending an hour practicing I got used to it and now I like it. It is an extra challenge that will require some practice. 

 

[TRG]

+1 for realism by the sounds of things!

 

[bonaduce]

Agree with owen, very unforgiving on out lap, but by lap 2 the tires were gripping. Definitely prefer V7 on the f3 over the skippy tho, skippy seems to be overly twitchy.

 

[andyspicer]

So been trying out the new tires, so far I think I've learned:
1) First lap sucks, and I mean sucks, we really need to take it easy especially in the morning races. After the first lap though it does seem more forgiving and it you are able to catch the slides and wobbles easier.
2) Standing Starts are going to be harder. Before you can mash the pedal at the start but now you just spin, going to take some practice.
3) I needed to lower my tire pressures from last season. Made a big difference in lap times. Although I'm reading in the forums some are raising them so I'm not sure what the right call is. All I know I was a full second faster lowering the pressures by 1.5.
4) The third and fourth lap were great and then I lost a half a second to a second per lap for the rest of the stint. Plan on running short qualifying stints?
5) Tires degraded faster, I was down to 89-90% for left side tires at Catalunya after 20 min. Not sure how it will stand to a 45 min race, Some guys were getting tires last season but most were not. I'm wondering if that is going to change.

Overall, at first I hated it, really hated it. But after spending an hour practicing I got used to it and now I like it. It is an extra challenge that will require some practice. 

For what it's worth, that is exactly the behavior of the tires on this car in the real world. Out lap is just warming tires, second lap is warming tires, third and fourth laps are qualifying time laps, fifth lap on is .5 seconds off three and four all things being equal. So, that's a good thing I think. Of course, I haven't tried them yet, lol.

 

[madace]

Do you guys find the huge slip angles and crazy traction normal?

 

[TheGreatC81]

Do you guys find the huge slip angles and crazy traction normal?

I've never driven a real F3 so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the NTM is much more realistic. I don't think the slip angles are all that large, they just feel that way because there was hardly any at all on the old tire model. It will take some time in the car to get a good feel for them overall, but so far, I'm impressed. It does seem to give a good deal more overall traction, but then again, this is a formula car. Coupled with the crazy downforce, it should have some pretty insane grip. I think the feeling of additional traction also comes from simply having a much better feel of what the tire is doing and how close you are to the limit. I think this will be a fun season. Managing tire temps and wear will be a factor. It's not just set it and forget it now.

So far, the only thing I don't like about NTMv7 is that it makes it glaringly obvious how bad v6 was! I hope they get the new model on the rest of the cars soon. Like really soon, not iRacing's "soon".  :lol:  It'll be awesome when they finally get it onto the GT cars and prototypes. Endurance races are going to require some well thought-out strategy when the time comes. 

 

[SuperHawk]

I am loving the new tire model as it much more realistic now. I have ran numerous laps at Suzuka for gathering tire data for the upcoming season and have compared the iRacing telemetry to the real life F3 car telemetry around the circuit that I managed to acquire. A few thoughts on the setups for iRacing vs what irl F3 runs:

With this tire model you will have to adjust the cambers to more realistic settings. irl camber settings recommendations from Hankook are Front (1.5 to 2.5) and Rear (1.0 to 2.0)

I found that toe differs from irl settings and this adjustment really helps with the heat of the tires. Over heating will obviously cause the lap times to drop.

Slip Angle: irl slip angle of this car and tire combo ranges from 6 to 10 degrees. The slip angle I am getting at Suzuka is ranging from 4 to 8 degrees, so the slip angle isn't as much as the real car. It feels like it is too much, but that is because the old tire model didn't allow for much slip angle at all before spinning.

Driving technique will really affect how much the car drops off in times during the stint. With the old tire model you could just mash the throttle through the esses and you are either on throttle fully or off, with this model it is much more like real life. If you drive it that way in the first few laps (which it will hold fine) you will heat the tires up and times will then drop off. But if you drive it like a real car where you might go 70 percent throttlle through one corner and then 60% through another instead of on and off the throttle, this will allow for the tires to not overheat as much and keep them in the operating range for a much longer period of time. You can also feel when the tires are overheated and if you back off a bit and cool them back down, you can bring your times back down as well.

Tire Pressures: irl recommendations for this car/tire combo are 16.0psi to 17.5psi. These pressures do work well in testing for the longevity of the run. Faster times however can be achieved with lower pressures, but you will have to manage the tires more throughout the stint.

Just an example, I ran my last Suzuka set that I was doing mid 48s with originally and was only doing low 50s at the start of the stint and dropped off to 52s even during the stint. I only adjusted cambers and toe and pressures and went to mid 49s, but still dropped off almost 2 sec during the stint, but oddly the last 3 laps got .7 faster. So I kept that same set with the camber and toe changes and adjusted my throttle input in the corners. I was doing High 49s at the start and only dropped off .5 seconds throughout the whole stint. After adjusting downforce combos and some spring settings I managed to get back down to the mid 48s and only dropped off .7 seconds throughout the stint on 3 full stint runs.

I don't know if this info will help any of you, but just some of my observations.

 

[TRG]

Thanks for sharing, Michael. Very valuable info to have.

This type of post is exactly the spirit we want to see. Helping everyone learn and improve will only make the racing and overall series better.

 

[TheGreatC81]

Good info, Mike. It backs up my initial impressions, but I actually thought the real life numbers wouldn't match as well as they seem to. This will make the racing much more interesting IMO. Now there are limitations for how we drive the car depending on how long the race is, when we pit, if we take tires or not, etc. Pushing hard too hard to catch that guy a few seconds ahead could end up slowing you down before you catch him due to tire temps and wear. Battling for lap after lap with someone may end up costing both drivers some positions for the same reasons.

Instead of everyone pushing for the lead right off the bat, we may actually see more drivers hang back and play it safe until the later laps. Hopefully, this will lead to cleaner races and more drivers finishing. Or at the very least, they'll get knocked out going for the glory in the final laps instead of L1T1.

I was also thinking about how rear suspensions were usually set towards the soft end of the range with NTMv6. I'd imagine that didn't match up well with real life, or did it? With NTMv7, I could see more people (especially the guys with exceptional car control) running tighter setups now that the grip and slip angles seem to support it. I'm just speculating though as I haven't done much testing yet.

 

[kart7990]

First S4 official race in the books, it was a glorious disaster. Hate to sound like a broken record, but I think rolling starts with a formation lap or two should be tested/considered. Half the grid went spinning before turn one, and another 5 or 6 in the esses following turn one. I know we are a step above official iRacing races, but even by that standard, it was horrible. The launch requires clutch/throttle modulation (realistic and not a huge deal), and the first lap you're going to be driving a snow plow if you push even the slightest bit. This car needs tire warmers or warm up laps, especially with the new tire model.

This wasn't the race, but it went down about the same way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGpShCYKXV0

 

[mclachlanol]

First S4 official race in the books, it was a glorious disaster. Hate to sound like a broken record, but I think rolling starts with a formation lap or two should be tested/considered. Half the gird went spinning before turn one, and another 5 or 6 in the esses following turn one. I know we are a step above official iRacing races, but even by that standard, it was horrible. The launch requires clutch/throttle modulation (realistic and not a huge deal), and the first lap you're going to be driving a snow plow if you push even the slightest bit. This car needs tire warmers or warm up laps, especially with the new tire model.

Yeah we're looking in to it more, we might setup a poll to see what the guys think.

 

[SuperHawk]

The launch isn't really fixable, but you can fix the plowing on the first lap with a different setup. That is what is great about the model, it is more of a simulation now and not just a game anymore. You actually have to drive the car instead of just hammer down flat out all the time.

 

[kart7990]

It should plow on the first lap with cold tires if pushed. If you're able to fix that behavior with a setup, then you should pay for it with an ill handling car once the tires come up to temp, no?

 

[kart7990]

I agree on the launch, I think if we did a rolling start we might trade one problem for another. Faster speeds going into turn one might offset any safety gain of (potentially) warmer tires. I haven't actually tested how much heat a formation lap or two would build in the tires. I actually really like having to modulate the launch, what I don't like is that any spin on the cold tire will cause it to become unrealistically slick almost immediately.

 

[mclachlanol]

So I did some practice with starts and what I found to help me was to keep the throttle at ~50% and avoid any tire spin. As soon as the car starts moving (without any spin) I can go full throttle right away with no problems. 

If you spin the wheels even a little bit it becomes really hard to recover. This so called "ice effect" occurs and you are in world of hurt. If it does happen the only thing I could do was to lift completely off the throttle for a few tenths and then slowly apply throttle to 100%. It also seems like the "ice effect" stayed with you through the first turn.

Overall though I found it was pretty easy to start, you just have to keep your initial throttle input low enough to avoid spinning the tires and then maybe after only a tenth you can go 100%.

 

[TRG]

So, what you're saying its... more realistic?

 

[ShadowNinjaPug]

Hi All,

Being new to this league, I have never raced where a pit stop was required so I was hoping a few fellow racers could enlighten me with some questions that I have:

1. Do you fill up to the max 50% of fuel allowed and only put in what’s needed to finish the race when you pit?
2. I race in VR, for those that do as well, how do you tell the sim how much fuel you need at pit? Verbal command through Crew Chief? Manually set it in the Black Boxes while driving? Else?
3. With the new tire model, anyone planning on swapping their tires during pit?
4. Is it expected that you announce that you are pitting in?
5. How does qualifying work? Is it the best lap posted during the entire 15-minute qualifying session or do you get the standard 2 timed laps?
6. Are there any unwritten rules/etiquette a newbie should be aware of?
7. Are races really time based (45 mins) or is this converted to a set number of laps?

Thanks in advance everyone.

 

[CajunGrit]

Hi All,

Being new to this league, I have never raced where a pit stop was required so I was hoping a few fellow racers could enlighten me with some questions that I have:

1. Do you fill up to the max 50% of fuel allowed and only put in what’s needed to finish the race when you pit?
2. I race in VR, for those that do as well, how do you tell the sim how much fuel you need at pit? Verbal command through Crew Chief? Manually set it in the Black Boxes while driving? Else?
3. With the new tire model, anyone planning on swapping their tires during pit?
4. Is it expected that you announce that you are pitting in?
5. How does qualifying work? Is it the best lap posted during the entire 15-minute qualifying session or do you get the standard 2 timed laps?
6. Are there any unwritten rules/etiquette a newbie should be aware of?
7. Are races really time based (45 mins) or is this converted to a set number of laps?

Thanks in advance everyone.

Hey Ray!

As the slowest man on track, I’ll answer as many questions as i can until someone more savvy comes along. 

1) The session will automatically limit your fuel if your set up defaults to anything above the fuel limit.  You can put in as much or as little gas as you want in your pit stop. Personally i just leave it at Max fuel unless I’m in a close battle where i might be able to gain an advantage for taking less fuel. But the F3 fuels up pretty quick and I’m usually not in a close battle, so i haven’t taken less than Max fuel. 

2) I do it manually, but I’m almost certain that Crew Chief type programs can do it for you.  I’d ask Owen or Tyler for more info on that though. 

3) Taking tires is the great unknown with the new tire model. But my money is on the side of taking tires.  I’m betting that the time lost on taking tires will definitely be gained back on track. 

4) If you have a car in your mirrors they might appreciate the heads up when you’re putting in or out, but otherwise it’s not really mandatory. 

5) We have a live qualy session with all cars on track at the same time. Your fastest lap during qualy is used, and you can run as many laps as you can manage before the checkered flag. 

6) Etiquette wise, lifting on the straights for a blue flag is appreciated (some of us found that out the hard way ).  And generally just being a nice guy and accepting responsibility for your mistakes goes a long way. We have people of all talent levels here, and mistakes happen. As long as we learn from mistakes i think we’re all good. 

7) there’s no set number of laps. It’s all time based. 


Thanks for the series sponsorship!  I got excited when i heard we were being sponsored by Ninja Trader. I actually just started using Ninja Trader to do some hobby level trading, so to see you pop up here has been a mind blowing coincidence for me lol.